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The True Church or a Cult

Debate Intro

Debaters:

  • Roland Laynesa
  • Atheist Jesus

Welcome to the debate entitled "The True Church or a Cult", between 4th Watch cult member Roland Laynesa and our own Atheist Jesus. This is our very first debate with a 4th Watch cult member, and is the first debate to be put up on our website. In the debate, Roland Laynesa will try to prove that the Pentecostal Missionary Church of Christ (4th Watch) is the true church according to the Bible, and Atheist Jesus will try to show that the church is actually a cult. This particular debate is an online debate, taking place on Roland's blog titled "FAGS for Christ" (Former Atheists and Gays for Christ). The debate is currently in progress. We are posting every post made on that blog here on our site.

Roland Laynesa has obviously been brainwashed by the 4th Watch cult, as you will clearly see as you read the debate. The debate started with Mr. Laynesa emailing us his personal beginnings as an individual and with the 4th Watch cult. We're not exactly sure why he emailed us this, but it was probably to simply give a positive testimony about his church. We responded to his email with a link our actual website, as he obtained our email through a different site. That is when he then requested a debate with us.

Here are the guidelines to reading the debate: Both opponents will take turns making their case. Both opponents are represented by special icons to help make it clear who is currently speaking. Roland Laynesa is represented by a mindless zombie, and Atheist Jesus is represented by Jesus Christ Superstar. All speech in the debate will be contained in a passage bubble to distinguish certain passages of speech from others. Anything that Roland says is contained inside a dark bubble, while anything that Atheist Jesus says is in a light" bubble. When one opponent refers to something that the other opponent says, that speech is contained inside its own passage bubble; dark for Roland's referenced passages, and light for Atheist Jesus' referenced passages. Bible passages are also displayed in a dark bubble. One icon and its main passage bubble will be used for each turn of that opponent, except when significant time has passed by, or when a completely seperate idea or debate is expressed. A header will be placed above the main passage bubble with the icon when it is an opponent's turn to speak. This will further help you to know who is currently speaking. All speech within the debate will be displayed in order as they are talked about. However, sometimes debates sometimes go in different directions, and sometimes it is appropriate to split the debate up into multiple categories. In this particular debate, along with the main debate itself, a whole different debate about other things such as the rules of the debate started, and so we split the debate into two seperate debates; one being for the main issues, and one for the petty issues. When a new idea or issue is being talked about, but does not have a header to indicate that, a horizontal rule might be used instead to indicate that.

The following is the email that Mr. Laynesa sent us and our responses that initiated the debate:

Email from Roland Laynesa

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spacer I grew up with two loving parents. I am the eldest of the siblings. My family and friends all thought of me as a nice and understanding person. For them I was intellectual and talented in many fields.

My father and I are alike in many things like hobbies, scholarly interests, and even personality, except for one thing: I am attracted to men. At age 13 I struggled with feelings of homosexuality. I am a complete gay. There was a part inside of me that was curious and wanted to experience some things. This resulted to many homosexual experiences in college and right after college with different guys: some married, some single, some gays like me.

I rationalized all of my homosexual experiences. I justified to myself that it is biologically normal to be a gay and have those experiences. During my college years I become so liberated and got my personal gratification from relationships with males. I always keep in my mind I am a free person and no one or nothing could stop me. I turned my back on God - slowly I became an infidel to the Christian faith. Later I became an agnostic, and ultimately an atheist.

After college I spent as an atheist for many years. I called myself a rationalist. I hated God, religion and church. I thought that the idea of God was just foolish. I indoctrinated myself with logic, evolution, DNA, quantum mechanics, origin of matter, laws of nature, cosmological theories, etc. With these I did not need a God. I am an intellectually satisfied hardcore atheist.

One day I met a long lost woman friend in college and invited me to have a discussion about faith and the Bible. She told me that she was converted to a church after college graduation. I accepted her invitation but my purpose was just to make fun of her beliefs, thinking she was as easy target. But I didn't expect that she was able to defeat my reasons. This challenged me to study more of arguments for atheism.

The discussion between me and my friend continued. Every week we would talk and spend time together. It was very natural in our conversations for her to share her faith with me. I was fascinated, not only with her conviction to testify, but also with her ability to win over my arguments. And then she brought me to one of their church services. The people were very accommodating and kind, especially the pastor. I told them that I am an atheist and a gay. I thought they will reject me but they say "you are very much welcome here, please continue to attend our services."

After years of attending to their church and intense investigation of the Bible and Jesus, I was converted. I've made a big decision. I am now a follower of Jesus Christ. But what about my homosexuality? I asked the pastor about it. He said, "I will not condemn you. Go, and sin no more." On that day I repented of my sin and gave my life to Christ. I stopped blaming God for my condition and tried to look honestly at myself. I sobbed and cried and prayed earnestly, night and day, for this experience.

With the continuous listening of the words of God, prayers and advices from the brethren, and self dedication, an amazing thing happened - I was delivered! I was changed. I was able to get my feelings out about my sexual identity crisis. I don't struggle with those sexual desires any longer. I had many opportunities to do lustful things but I am able to overcome them all. I found holiness and peace in my heart.

From then on I dedicated my life over to God and let Him control it. My desire now is to please God. I am not proud of who I used to be. But I am proud of Jesus. I am proud to be a member of the true church, which is God's instrument to transform me from being a gay atheist into a true man of God.

I thank God for his all-sufficient grace to me. It is now my duty to testify His goodness, that people like me can be forgiven and change. To God be the glory.
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Our Response

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Freethinker spacer Hello Roland. Thank you for contacting us. You should probably go back to being gay. You were taught to hate yourself, but the truth is, there is nothing wrong with you as far as your sexuality is concerned. Instead of learning to hate yourself, you need to learn how to love yourself. We know since you are in the 4th Watch, love is not something you are learning, but love will help the world more than hate will. We will never understand why a homosexual would ever choose to be a Christian. We certainly don't believe that the 4th Watch "cured" you; you probably are still gay, but you have been terrorized by the cult into believing that being gay will lead you to Hell, and so you are doing your best to deny your true feelings. Relax. Let it go. There is no god and devil, and no god who is good is going to put you in Hell for being a homosexual. We hope you understand this and leave the cult. Thanks. spacer
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Freethinker spacer I was re-reading some of your message, and I know how they got you. They are a cult, and they specialize in recruitment. You were already vulnerable due to this world's negative view of homosexuality. Instead of loving who you were, you wanted to hate yourself so that you would have a reason to change. The cult you joined realized this and preyed on you, taking advantage of this weakness. When you say how nice and kind they were to you, this is what is called "love bombing", where they do whatever they can to make you feel loved, welcome, and as if you're part of the "family". This only helps to suck you into their cultic grasp. I know, I went through the same thing. I thought they loved me too, until they started teaching me to hate homosexuals and to believe in the most ridiculous things, such as their cult leader being the "leader of all Christians", and that I would have to give him money in order to go to Heaven. I was strong enough to resist their psychological programming and nonsense, but many are not. I know all too well how they were able to do what they did to you.

You can read more about psychological programming at our website here:
http://www.pmcc4thwatchtruth.org/pages/web/programming.shtml
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spacer Just came across to your site. I read your articles and found lots of false accusations to the group PMCC 4th Watch, especially alleging it as a cult. I would like you to prove your assertions in an online debate with me. By the way here is my brief background, fagsforchrist.wordpress.com. You can leave a comment there. spacer Cult Member
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